COP 4 cylinder - 924s/944 & other content - Very Long Po

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Dean924s
Posts: 228
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 2:57 am
Location: USA - MA

Post by Dean924s »

Putting the gear mounting hardware. The local hardware store has a great selection of nuts bolts spacers bushings and stuff. Found the proper steel sleeve to put in the gear so the bolt is exactly centered. The rest was getting a bolt of the correct length and thread pitch in a grade 8. Add some washers and it bolts on like it was factory.
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Dean

Dean924s
Posts: 228
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 2:57 am
Location: USA - MA

Post by Dean924s »

more
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Dean

Dean924s
Posts: 228
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 2:57 am
Location: USA - MA

Post by Dean924s »

cam gear retainer in place
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Dean

Dean924s
Posts: 228
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 2:57 am
Location: USA - MA

Post by Dean924s »

My first go at mounting the sensor yielded this. I mounted it to the cover and it worked out that all I Needed was to add a washer behind the plate that I wended the sensor bracket to and it was aligned.

I liked the idea of keeping the cover for the timing belt gear but this creates a problem for installing the wheel assembly With out getting into the details you can not put the thing back together as you can not hold the timing belt gear while tightening the bolt and you will have to some how hold the gear in place as well. Bottom line it was starting to get complicated. The fix would be to cut a whole in the cover where the gear comes through. This would allow for the initiation of the gear and then installing the cover. I still may do this BUT one of my goals it to keep this reversible and if I cut up the cover you will not be able to install the distributor cap. I do have a couple of covers so I can experiment.

With the hole in the cover enlarged I could then get the gear aligned and then remove the cover, scribe the position of the gear to the cam cog retainer flange and tighten the bolt that I am using to install the gear and hold the cam cog in place.

I will have to think about this further. Here is a photo of the sensor in place
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Dean

Dean924s
Posts: 228
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 2:57 am
Location: USA - MA

Post by Dean924s »

Test Fit with the un cut gear
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Dean

Dean924s
Posts: 228
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 2:57 am
Location: USA - MA

Post by Dean924s »

Red circle on cam gear cover is area that would have to be removed to get it off with the gear in place.
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Dean

Dean924s
Posts: 228
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 2:57 am
Location: USA - MA

Post by Dean924s »

So I fabricated this. I put more adjustment in to this one. I can swing/pivot the sensor up on the bracket. I can move the bracket up and down and I can also rotate the bracket. The bracket can also be moved side to side in the slot as well (about 1 tooth width) all this is so when I got to put the gear on I don't have to sweat getting it exactly in place but instead I will have some room to find tune the location of the sensor once I have the trigger gear bolted in place.
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Dean

Dean924s
Posts: 228
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 2:57 am
Location: USA - MA

Post by Dean924s »

And a comparison of the two mount set ups.


So what do you all think? I am going to install the second set up on the car tomorow.
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Dean

alexander
Posts: 246
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2008 4:33 am
Location: sydney, australia.

Post by alexander »

dean, for my part, i prefer the option with the sensor mounted on the cover. it will keep the cam sprocket covered, and the more moving parts covered up, the better. it should also hold the VR more stable, whereas the other bracket could vibrate. while it would be, on balance, better if the cover could come off without removing the trigger wheel, i dont think that is imperative. it is not as if it is removed often - once this is set up, it would only have to be removed when replacing the cam belt.

my main concern with your set up is that trigger wheel is not positively located on the camshaft. correct me if i have misread you, but the correct position of the trigger wheel is only maintained by the clamping force of the bolt? if so, i think you should try to fabricate a locating lug & notch pair on that spacer which used to hold the distributor cap, and the trigger wheel. it would be highly desirable if you could just push it in place, spin it around till these notch/lug engaged, then tighten the bolt. otherwise, it means fiddling with the exact location each time, and there is a risk of the trigger wheel moving position or coming completely loose. you can bet that will be somewhere at night, in the rain!


suggestion: CAREFULLY cut a small slot in the front face of that spacer. small cutting discs are about 1/8" (3mm), which would be just perfect. then, drill and tap a hole to suit a 1/8" bolt into the flange of the spur gear so it is opposite the slot, when the gear is correctly aligned. screw a suitable small high tensile bolt into the hole, with loctite. cut the head off the bolt such that the bit left sticking out will just fit into the slot on the spacer. then the trigger wheel will be properly located, and refitting wont be a drama.


alexander.

DannyP
Posts: 417
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2006 3:48 pm

Post by DannyP »

I agree about the mounting of the sensor. It is REALLY important that it not resonate or vibrate in any way whatsoever. The cover would definitely hold it firm.

I would get everything lined up and then put two small tack welds from the trigger wheel to the pulley. Then remove it and drill a hole through the trigger wheel into the flange of the timing pulley. Stuff a roll pin in there and then grind off the tack welds. Removable and properly located, done.

My VR sensor has no adjustment, I just put a 1mm feeler gauge between the sensor and trigger wheel, marked the holes, drilled and tapped. Once that was done, I turned the trigger wheel to the correct spot, and then drilled 4 hold-down screws. Mine is not mounted with a through bolt in the center.

It really doesn't matter if you are a few degrees off anyway, the software can now compensate. I figured out later that my timing is 2.5 degrees more advanced than I thought, so I modified my map to correct for it. You won't have to do that now that Brent has V4 all set.

alexander
Posts: 246
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2008 4:33 am
Location: sydney, australia.

Post by alexander »

DannyP wrote: I would get everything lined up and then put two small tack welds from the trigger wheel to the pulley. Then remove it and drill a hole through the trigger wheel into the flange of the timing pulley. Stuff a roll pin in there and then grind off the tack welds. Removable and properly located, done.

.

i second that. good solution.

Dean924s
Posts: 228
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 2:57 am
Location: USA - MA

Post by Dean924s »

I was actually thinking of welding the gear to the cam gear retainer anyway. This would make installation a snap as there is a key on the spacer that only allows it to be installed on way. And since have a mig welder this is not a problem.

The biggest Issue I have with my first set up is that I really did not want to destroy the cam cover. In order to make it so I can install the cover over the gear I will have to remove a large section (see photo above with red circle on it) where the distributor cap mounts. With the piece removed the cap can no longer be mounted. For me this is not an issue as I have spare covers but this makes the "reversibility" of the project much less.

I could weld up a diagonal support on the second set up. this would triangulate the sensor bracket back to the roll pin on the bolt preventing vibration. I was also going to tack weld the washers and the roll pin in place once I permanently locate the sensor. I could even add some small pieces of angle iron along the bolt/roll pin and weld them to the brackett. This should help to eliminate flex and vibration

Since it is raining here I have another day o mess with fabrication inside.

A Lot to ponder. Maybe I will do both.

I am definitely going to weld the trigger wheel in place. I will then see about getting both sensor setups to align in the same place so I can swap them out and see what I like.

For now I agree with everything you all have said and I will be reverting back to plan #1

So it is off to the hardware store for more cutting wheels for my dermal and some small pieces of steel rod to add some triangulation to my bracket!!!

I will post up photos of the progress labor.

You know if I get both setups working then I will have to get another 944 :D or better yet a 951
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Dean

alexander
Posts: 246
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2008 4:33 am
Location: sydney, australia.

Post by alexander »

hi dean,
you should aim to get a second hand timing cover to put in a box, so you can cut the hole in the existing one, knowing that you have a spare if you ever want to reverse the conversion. you never will, of course, but that way you wont mind cutting the hole!

and, yes, do weld the trigger wheel to the spacer. having another look i can see that the space is keyed to the cam, so if you make it one piece, it will always be an easy reinstall.

alexander.

Dean924s
Posts: 228
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 2:57 am
Location: USA - MA

Post by Dean924s »

I have two cam covers plus one on the car so it is not an issue.

I centered the trigger wheel and tacked it in place tonight. I will make the final welds tomorow and see about getting this thing up and running tomorow.

I am going to do both setups. It will mean realigning the other one but it is not really an issue

I am going to add some triangulation to my second one. I picked up some 1/4" square rod that should do the trick. This should prevent any vibrations from causing an issue. If this works there are two bolt holes on the bottom below the cam gear that I could extend a bracket down to making the installation very secure.

However at the moment I just want to get it up and running. This more than likely means that what ever ends up on the car will probably not be the final deal.

Time for sleep and get on it tomorow!!!
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Dean

Dean924s
Posts: 228
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2008 2:57 am
Location: USA - MA

Post by Dean924s »

First off it is not running yet. The short answer is having 4 kids means you can not plan squat!!!! I love my kids and for some reason my 7 Year old and my 3 year old were extremely interested in what daddy was doing. Lets just say it slowed things down. Every time I wanted to weld I had to get them out of the shop.

I have complete BOTH sensor mounts and the best thing is that they both put the sensor in the exact came location on the trigger wheel so they are interchangeable.

First things first I welded the trigger wheel gear to the cam gear retainer. It worked great!!!! I suspect that this could also be brazed this and it would be a much neater installation. I may try this for the next one and see. I can always weld it if it does not work. Another answer would be to braze it and have it tig welded. I have got to get me one of those some day but at almost 1k for a decent. it is a tad expensive. I would get a plasma cutter before I get a tig. Anyway, I digress.

I was using flux core for these welds as I did not want to lug the tanks in from my shed so the welds are a bit messy. I got good penetration of the welds. For those that weld I was getting that sound like sizzling bacon and the weld bead was just biting and flowing in to the pieces. Welding was fun today! There have been days when I can not draw a bead no matter what I do. One comment I have about welding this is that you should cover your trigger wheel. the splatter is a sob to get off and interfered with my sensor when I tested the clearances (yes it is that tight less than 1mm between the sensor and the wheel.
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Dean

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